I folded on the flop
20/40 Limit Hold'em at Foxwoods. Sunday night, not too many regulars at the table. Several gamblers at the table and it is playing loose and aggressive.
limp, limp, MP raises, cc, cc, cut-off 3-bets. I call 3 bets cold with A6s from the button and I am proud of it, sb calls, bb caps. All call.
9 to flop. 36 sbs. I like Foxwoods.
Flop: 3d 4c Qh sb checks, big blind bets, all call to cut-off who raises. I fold. everyone else calls.
Dealer says "Eight players" table is like WTF, who folded? Everyone sneers at me.
36 bets pf, 16 on the turn. Expressed odds are assumed to be 52:2. I have no hand, no draw, no outs except running 5-7?
Tough laydown. I must be a pretty tight player.
Results. Turn came Ah and was checked around River black 9 and the pot was one by a nit's A9 s in diamonds.
Labels: 20/40
posted by DMW at
6:53 PM
10 Comments:
Did you mean to put the Qs on the flop giving you runner runner nut flush draw also? We'll assume no.
I'd fold preflop for 3 friggin bets because no matter how good I am at reading hands, reading 8 hands postflop and figuring out if one pair (A's or 6's) is good is a difficult and often money-losing task. YMMV.
Much rather have J9s for 3-4 bets 9 ways.
Here's the deal though: how often do you put in 4 bets in position and fold your spurious but still living outs because someone donks with ATC and someone else raises with SOTC? You're not playing fit-or-fold exactly, but something close to it, and the guys with 76 and 55 (or somthing of similar relative equity) get to chop up your money.
You left a long comment so I'll give a long response.
Yes that was my mistake from cutting and pasting from 4. I fixed it now, I would have stayed in with a backdoor draw.
It's nearly a given that a better ace is out and thus a single flopped Ace isn't enough. Getting better aces to fold on the turn and rivering one might be. I wouldn't really need to read everyone's hand since the non-maniacs were playing conservative postflop to get to showdown when we had a huge pot.
Being in position with a few conservative/passive/straight-forward regs in between myself and the LAGS makes it easy to get a lot of bets when I flop a strong hand or draw.
Yes, I'd rather have J10s, or a lot of better hands. But Sunday night games don't stay like this forever :>
Just figured out Any Two Cards and Some other Two Cards :> Rarely does the board come down so bad (as in this case) that I fold the flop. I think knowing what to do with one pair on the turn is much more difficult.
Quite often I fold a hand with some equity. But since this hand is going to end in a showdown 99+% of the time, the donking by weak hands won't hurt me too much. Did I answer your questions?
Preflop it's not about reading hands, it's about reading the blinds. If you are pretty sure at least one of the blinds will follow then it's a call. If you're pretty sure they'll both call you should have 4 bet it.
The fold on the flop is the right thing.
If this hand is typical of the game then you should be folding a lot on the flop, not so much preflop.
With the backdoor draw you might take a card off for one bet but not two bets when the action is likely to go to 3 or 4 bets.
A combination of overcards with the backdoor draw or the backdoor draw with a gutshot might be worth chasing, but not just the backdoor draw with a single weak overcard.
I don't know why I didn't notice this the first time I read man's comment.
The idea that J9s is a better hand to have than A6s in this kind of multi-bet, multi-way hand is just insane. Or maybe not insane, maybe just ignorant.
This is a flush draw kind of a game. (or sets) Straight draws are close to worthless. Flopping a pair is not a big money maker no matter what your kicker is.
Top pair with a flush draw is gold. Bottom pair with an overcard and a nut flush draw is a bigger pile of gold.
A flush draw with nothing extra is good, but not nearly as good as a flush draw with something extra.
An A6 is much more likely to give you a nut flush draw with an overcard than J9 is.
I agree with most of that Gary, but why would str8 draws not be valuable? A lot of the loose-aggressive players are going put in a lot of bets and raises with 2-pair or sets against a str8; but even they might slow down against the more obvious flush.
Oh, I posted it on 4 and rgp
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/53/medium-stakes-limit/calling-3-bets-cold-a6s-then-folding-flop-298278/#post6112096
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gambling.poker/browse_thread/thread/62167a14ceade916#
Make that:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gambling.poker/browse_thread/thread/62167a14ceade916#
Yeah um I can tell you're smart and you're a solid player but I honestly don't get why there is so much analysis for a hand like A6. I mean you either hit with that on the flop or you forget about it, yes? It's not like it's a suited connector or gapper and you hit flush and pair possiblities on the flop, so why dedicate so much time to it. Of course it's also late so I could be overanalyzing this situation myself.
I meant flush and straight possibilities on the flop.
We're debating whether its worth to call a lot of bets pf in a loose game. The flop fold wasn't really much of a question.
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